Curse

Aera · Apr 27, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Yes yes, I know there's a lot of topics on this. After reading Gaile's topic (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10145002) I noticed that there's basically only whining about Mesmers in PvE, instead of giving SUGGESTIONS.

So I was wondering, how does the community think Mesmers can be improved in PvE?

Also, a great quote I got from the other topic:

Quote:

So youre going to make some spells AoE and increase the damage like you did with Signet of Clumsiness?

The real problem is that Meteor Shower pwns all pve, and with echos and glyphs of renewals thats all an ele needs. Add an SS for constant damage in AoE, and you win PvE.

Bonds are too strong as a form of defence, meaning that any caster can just nuke the enemy without the need to shut them down.

Tanking makes the whole thing even simpler; line them up, and nuke them down.

Where could a Mesmer fit into such PvE? Fix PvE, not mesmers.

XvArchonvX · Apr 27, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Imo, what makes the mesmer rather weak in PvE is that their effects are mostly for single target. In PvP this is ok since enemies are in lesser numbers and are much smarter, therefore needing a more clever way to kill. In PvE, enemies are big, strong, dump and in big mobs. Since most PvE enemies have crappy skill bars to start with, there's usually not much need to shut them down. Also, the few mesmer skills that do target AoE are generally weak and have long recharges. They also have rather weak energy management (thanks in large parts to nerfs in Inspiration). In a PvE type environment, it's hard to choose a mesmer when you need utility when you can bring a curses necro instead that can bring very similar utility along with more AoE type skills to deal damage. If mesmer skills are still needed, then a mesmer secondary necro is still generally a better choice.

For a mesmer to be a stronger in a PvE type setting, at least one of the following needs to happen. Enemies should be smarter and have stronger skill bars, but come in smaller groups (personally, I believe this would improve all of PvE since it could still allow a balanced difficulty while encouraging variety and strategy for players of all classes). Mesmers need better energy management. If putting some strength into the Inspiration line makes it too susceptible to monks abusing it, then put some energy management skills into the fast casting line. They also need more skills that can affect AoE. This does not mean they have to have big AoE damage dealing hexes like Spiteful Spirit, but perhaps some more skills that provide AoE disruption such as Cry of Frustration. Why not take a look at some existing mesmer spells and make AoE versions of them? Making a skill like a weaker version of backfire that is AoE could fit into the line. Lower the damage considerably from what backfire is, make it trigger only once, and give it a low recharge and you have a good skill for mesmers. An AoE Arcane Conundrum could also help. Just like before, tone down the skill considerably so that it's not overpowered. Perhaps causing a 25% slower casting time would be fair. Many mesmer skills are like big cannons that are very strong, but very costly and have long recharges. Providing options that have lower recharges and reasonable costs are what may make this class stronger, even if they aren't as potent as the other costlier alternatives.

Boris De Pig · Apr 27, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Granted I'm new to being a mesmer but 3/4 through Nightfall and halfway through Factions and I've not noticed any real problems with mesmers in PvE.

OK, they don't kick out massive DPS, but being able to keep Bound Tenai from unleashing half his skill bar and causing devastation in Tehnakki Temple seemed to be a much faster way to get that mission done...

I generally play with 2-3 guildies and fill up on heroes, so far it's been going great.

Why are people obsessed with doing massive AoE damage? I like the 'prevention' rather than 'cure' approach that the Mesmer brings to the party.

just my 2cents.

BdP

zwei2stein · Apr 27, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boris De Pig

I like the 'prevention' rather than 'cure' approach that the Mesmer brings to the party.

Best prevention to anything is dead mob. It can't heal its allies or damage yourself.

With this perspective, mesmer is more "cure" thant prevention.

Shutdown takes time, and is uncertain, just spiking enemy down is fast and is definite. If groups needs to take care of boss, well, say hi to Broadheaded Arrow.

Sophitia Leafblade · Apr 27, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

If u cant kill the mob then there is no cure! see the 3 Ulodyte thread for example. A Good mesmer soon sorts them out.

I think Mesmers are great in PvE, yes they dont have much in the way of AoE but against single targets they are unmatched. In Hard mode they are even more useful. since the average enemy is much stronger and lives longer. My Mesmer stormed through Tryia much easier and Faster than any of my other characters.

Mesmers are severly unrated and they dont get the status they deserve.

Mordakai · Apr 27, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Found this in the Guild Wars Reborn! Pc Gamer thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renagadez

Mesmers would just be nifty if you could actually cast illusions on enemies (make them see something that aint there.. ie.. they are swinging at nothing. or just random fun skills to make the enemy to see you as like a 20ft Dragon or something. no real devistating effect other then to startle them for a second.

Actually, I think it would be even cooler to make it an Elite and have the Dragon actually count as a summoned creature (with HP degen or other timer), that could take and deal damage.

Basically, give Mesmers "Summon Illusions" spells, perhaps with new mechanics to make them different from Minions and Spirits.

greenthumb · Apr 27, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

The issue with mesmers in PvE probably is because Fast Casting isn't regarded as being as useful as some other primary attributes.

Mesmer skills are useful. In playing some hardmode, I find mesmer interrupts and necromancer curses to be indispensable. However, I use a necromancer for curses (since Signet of Lost Souls is so effective when used by heroes), and I use an elementalist primary to serve as a mesmer since the elementalist has the energy reserve to do the interrupts and useful wards.

Mesmer primaries would probably be more desirable in PvE if Fast Casting was buffed somehow for PvE or there were good PvE skills associated only with Fast Casting (like Signet of Lost Souls with Soul Reaping). For PvE, Energy Storage is very useful. I'd rather have the party recuperate energy after a battle as long as the party survives the battle.

Someone should setup some polls of what is the best (and maybe worst) primary attribute (separate polls for PvP and PvE), just the attribute as opposed to profession (which takes into account a lot of other things).

Renegade26 · Apr 27, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Hey, thats my post youve quoted up there in the OP!

Nice to see im appreciated.

Zinger314 · Apr 27, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

One thing you have to keep in mind.

ANY change you make to the Mesmer for PvE will affect PvP as well.

That's why ArenaNet is using PvE only skills to fix the Mesmer. Those are way overdue.

Skyy High · Apr 27, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Mesmers own hard mode. Empathy and backfire do silly amounts of damage with the increased attack speed and casting. They also have quite a few hex interrupts that don't require you to actually interrupt the monster; they interrupt spells automatically, circumventing the nigh-impossible to catch spells. And, melee shutdown is very useful for surviving mobs (though I prefer melee ward for that).

XvArchonvX · Apr 27, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

One thing you have to keep in mind.

ANY change you make to the Mesmer for PvE will affect PvP as well.

That's why ArenaNet is using PvE only skills to fix the Mesmer. Those are way overdue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

PvE-only skills are not tied to the Mesmer analysis, nor to any changes that might be brought about to Soul Reaping, almost mentioned in that Dev Update. Nor are Mesmers changes tied to the PvE-only skills. And 2008 is a little out there.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10148605

MSecorsky · Apr 27, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

My mesmer has become a big [skill]Soothing Images[/skill] fan. Adrenaline denial on the hard mode adrenal users has saved massive damage. I also take the mesmer hench and have only the earth ele hench. Vanquishing is actually easier than when I took the nukers.

Tzu Qui Jinn · Apr 27, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Oh I don’t know about the Mesmer being not useful in PvE. Some areas like DoA can use Me/R builds to help clear an area quite well.

Sympathetic visage
Ancestor’s visage
(ranger spirit) Famine

The problem is that the Mesmer has no primary attribute skill that can become useful for PvE builds. Fast casting is useless in PvE the majority of the time. Almost all useful skills for the Mesmer can be used by other class options. Even the build above would be better served by a ranger with 12 ranks of Illusion and 16 ranks in Wilderness Survival.

Perhaps if the AOE of hexes were linked to Fast Casting a Mesmer would become useful in PvE areas. In other words the higher the fast casting the larger area their hexes would become. However I’m sure this would have a disastrous effect on PvP.

Nexus Icon · Apr 27, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I've heard a nasty rumour that mesmer PvE skills are going to be focussed on archery.
So they'd be turning the class into some sort of "Arcane Archer"....

Originality is officially dead if this is the case :|

lyra_song · Apr 27, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Give mesmers something to shutdown in PvE -.-

Bosses cheat with hex duration!

Mad King Corn · Apr 27, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I have always loved my mesmer, when I created him in factions, I loved to watch as the enemy would drop like flies one at a time with -8 degen, it was like sucking the life out of them. My biggest issue with the mesmer is that I always run out of energy too fast, energy management seems to be a big issue for me so I hope that anet will help with some kind of pve energy management.
I love the illusion line and would like to see some AOE degen spells as well as something that works a bit like SS with perhaps an interrupt or two thrown in for good measure. Also some kind of AOE effect like maelstorm or choking gas would be nice too. If people could actually see the powerful degen spells of a mesmer in action, more people would accept them in PUGS.

I also love the Signet of Illusions and perhaps anet could make a PVE version that would awaken the nerfed inspiration spells.

HolyHawk · Apr 27, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Hum, I can think of a couple: the first is to add one effect to fast casting, to make the primary attribute more attractive, let's say, energy gain upon interrupts. I suppose that hurts nothing in pvp, actually helps and only mesmer can take advantadges over it; the second is to adjust some energy costs of skills to insert them on the pve atmosphere. And of course, pve-ONLY skills would help. I found lightbringer's gaze to be really good using my mesmer than some of her own skills.

Now if we step further, and I don't really see this happening, like someone already posted above, change the pve, not the mesmers. Make some areas to priorize brains over power. Anything that breaks the holy triad would do it. Mesmers are really really good on shutdown, but the point right now is that nothing needs shutdown because they are dying, and fast. I noticed a better acceptance on my mesmer in hard mode, but even I recognize a mesmer can be discarded in normal mode completelly. I completed some missions in nf taking nukes or necro's spoil just because people didn't want a mesmer as a mesmer, and doing it with heroes was frustrating because of their ai. Giving mobs a decent skill bar would reward having a mesmer on the team; and not like hard mode, making they do 100x more dmg, but just giving 6-8 skills to standart foes and I suppose you will need to have mesmers and rangers in a shutdown role in parties.

MSecorsky · Apr 27, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Hmm... a fast casting based (with 90% chance to fail if FC < 4) energy leeching type of spell would be nice, similar to necro life stealing.

For {n} seconds target enemy has -1 energy regen and you have +1 energy regen.

Zinger314 · Apr 27, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Hmm... a fast casting based (with 90% chance to fail if FC < 4) energy leeching type of spell would be nice, similar to necro life stealing.

For {n} seconds target enemy has -1 energy regen and you have +1 energy regen.

Hey, look, it's [skill]Ether Lord[/skill]!

Energy Degen has no effect in PvE, since enemies have unlimited Mana.

The Mesmer's saving grace in PvE is Backfire and Caster Shutdown. Necromancers do Melee Shutdown much better and easier.

FoxBat · Apr 27, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Broadhead arrow is pretty effective, but the question is what else you can do that's useful on such a ranger bar. You could add more bow attacks but without barrage, you'll basically suck, and bleeding/poison degen isn't that impressive in most PvE. You can add interrupts which are good, but so can mesmers, and most PvE things you want to interrupt are spells anyway. Meanwhile the mesmer has some room to bring things like empathy, backfire, and maybe MoR to go along with migrane or arcane conundrum. The mesmer's problem in that scenario isn't necessarily that their skills aren't effective enough, but that they don't have big, impressive, useless weapons to carry around.